Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms Wiki:Admin noticeboard/Archive 1

Vandalism
User:QuickMythril‎‎ is persistently vandalizing the page Avren. Is there anything that can be done about this? - Bobmath11 (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * To clarify, I was removing information that CNE has specifically asked wiki editors not to post online before public release, which i explained to bob already. Yesterday someone in the general chat said: "so i just looked up the slot 11 swaps and on gamepedia, whos that??" and also posted a picture of pre-release content.  We had to alert moderators to remove this from the chat.  there is a dedicated channel in the discord server for spoiler / prerelease / datamined information.  i asked individually about posting that type of information onto the wikis and to their reddit, and in both cases the answer was, "No, keep it only to the spoilers channel in the server."  These wikis have existed for around two years each now, and no one was posting pre-release info.  That is because the majority of editors were in communication with CNE through discord.  there is a channel there specific to wiki editing.  My initial contact with bob was positive and i attempted to involve him more with the editor community but he seemed very uninterested and basically ignored my multiple prompts for cooperation.  (saying i should share my ideas if i had any, when that is exactly what i was doing.)


 * My initial "vandalism" edit was a reaction to the issue that presented itself in the Discord. After being reverted without first contacting me, and due to the previous conversation, i was admittedly acting a little frustrated, but i do not appreciate being called names repeatedly.  I am hoping to prevent this from happening again.  the spoiler channel is optional for a reason, as some people do not wish to know things in advance, and they want the wiki to be the same.  i even suggested there be some kind of "sectioned off" area for that info, so it was very clear that it was spoiler info and also subject to change, but they did not want to have that either.  QuickMythril (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * CNE has nothing to do with the operation of this wiki, and the policies for their Discord server are irrelevant here. Even if some of the content added to Avren is determined to be inappropriate, that is no reason to completely blank the page, which QuickMythril has done several times. Contrary to his assertions, he has made no suggestions about how the page content might be handled, and he seems to completely disregard any sort of community process. Bobmath11 (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Here is what has been released officially:

--"Liars' Night 3 begins the week of October 14–18. This year's event will introduce Avren" -(source)


 * The page was blanked because it was a simple way to remove the said content from public view, and very easy to revert once the said content is released officially. We could debate all day about edit wars, but doesn't it make more sense to leave off content that is potentially causing an issue until it's been cleared, rather than leave up something that maybe you shouldn't until you get someone of (whatever amount of authority that you would accept) to say otherwise?  I have indeed said how to handle the content (several times over):  Leave it down until it is released.  Unfortunately the Idle Champions community extends well beyond this one wiki, and for you to ignore the rest of it will cause issues when those sectors overlap.  At this point i feel like i can only show you screenshots of the conversations we just had here on this very wiki to simply disprove most of your points (which would just be a waste of time):


 * I did not vandalize the wiki without saying anything. Even so, it's being said now, and still disregarded by you.  I did not neglect to provide any of my ideas for improving the wiki.  I suggested we combine efforts and gave ways we could communicate more easily, but those were totally left unanswered.  For the last time, I have indeed explained how this type of content should be and also always has been handled previously.  And finally to try and hit me with "not following community process".  Clearly you have seen that i did exactly as i should and talked to you on your "talk page" and pointed out a time when i had contacted the apparent admin here the same way.  You have to realize there has almost never been more than one or two people working on these wikis at a time together.  There was generally never a need to use the "Community Hub" or "Admin Noticeboard" or whatever bunch of other random Special Pages exist here.  if there was something to say, we just instant messaged each other like anyone else living in the years 2000+.  QuickMythril (talk) 02:01, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * So what you're saying is that you decided to vandalize the wiki, because the wiki community process is a joke to you? Is that seriously the argument you're making? And don't bother to say "we" -- you have never been a part of this community. Bobmath11 (talk) 02:55, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I appreciate you bringing this to my attention Bobmath11. QuickMythril has explained their reasoning and so to me is acting in good faith, so even if you do not agree with their edits please try to remain civil. I certainly see the issue with providing unreleased/"spoiler" content on the wiki if it may potentially affect reader experience. Technically CNE has no official control on the wiki as this is not an official wiki, but if people are upset with spoiler content being shown without some sort of warning, it's an issue worth being addressed regardless of whether you care about CNE's stance on the matter.


 * I can create a "spoiler" template that can be used to show/hide spoiler content by clicking a button (which can later be removed when the content is officially released), if that sounds like an idea that may help appease both sides of this argument. --Kittymmeow (talk) 05:29, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I have no disagreement with tagging this content, if you can somehow get him to agree to anything less than the complete blanking of the page that he objects to. I should clarify that there is no actual "spoiling" going on, in the sense of revealing the ending of a story. A new playable character is being added, and the page largely deals with how his abilities will work in-game. Bobmath11 (talk) 06:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Update on this: today had someone join my Mixer stream and was talking about how excited for the new champ. He said he had seen it all detailed here. Dylan from CNE responded in the Discord with the following: direct link to quote

"We're not generally fans of datamined information being posted anywhere. Until something goes live in-game, it isn't in a 'complete' state -- and even then may be changed -- so more than anything we don't like misinformation being shared. Since we don't control Gamepedia we don't have a say in what gets posted."

"We'd prefer it if players didn't post datamined content at all. However, outside platforms we operate (like this Discord and the Idle Champions subreddit) we don't have a lot of say what gets posted to the internet. The main reason there is a #well_of_spoilers here is because players complained about spoilers getting posted to #the_tavern. We are not fans of datamined content getting posted here, either, but at least in this channel players have the option to opt in to having content spoiled for them.  So if players want to post to the Wikia/Fandom/Gamepedia/etc, they can. We'd just rather they didn't, since content isn't really finalized until it goes live, and even then is subject to change.  One interesting note about Fandom/Gamepedia is that the folks at Fandom reached out to us at PAX West and asked if we were interested in taking over the Fandom page. We don't really have the time to keep it up to date, so it's not likely to happen."

I think a good idea might be to create those pages when the data becomes available, but not to link to them directly in the roster. This way only people who view the "Recent Changes" or other pages can see that it exists ahead of time. In a sense that would present the included "public" data in the same way that CNE does. It's available for those who are interested enough to look a bit more into it. QuickMythril (talk) 20:19, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps even applying Spoiler / Expand tags to the page itself, and a note. Then we could also use a category so anyone who wanted to see Pre-release info could just see that whole list of pages at a time? Stuff like upcoming weekend chests could be added to the Chests page with Spoiler tags as well. (Maybe some template that states this info was not accessed through normal gameplay and is subject to change.) Honestly might be easier/better to just not include at all, but at this point i am willing to compromise. QuickMythril (talk) 20:19, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I see no reason that the new content shouldn't be proudly linked from the front page. I can put new heroes at the end of list, so that their position in the roster is not revealed. I agree that prerelease information should be prominently marked as such, since it may change. Everything in the game is subject to change, of course, so that's not a real reason to avoid posting information. (There have been several major updates to the game, and parts of this wiki are badly out of date, which I've been trying to rectify.) The term "datamined" is somewhat misleading, since it implies that a large amount of data must be processed to get the information, and that is not the case. Bobmath11 (talk) 20:44, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
 * In case anyone thinks I'm being a jerk for not just censoring myself like they want, this is essentially the full disclosure argument. CNE is far too sloppy about what they release (they pushed a broken version of the game over the weekend, for example). If this issue causes them to tighten up their release procedures, then so much the better. Bobmath11 (talk) 22:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Well generally when there is something broken we try to work with them and help point it out, submit a ticket, or otherwise provide positive feedback. I can understand your frustration with glitches not being fixed and releases not being tested.  We've all experienced that, moreso the longer you've played.  But i don't think going against their wishes about pre-release info will help that.  at best it's one more thing they need to worry about, which will distract them from important issues.  at worst, it just seems like pointless spitefulness they will never even see.  I understand the difference between this and "datamining" but that's merely semantics (pretty sure you know what i meant).  like i said they know we can see the data they include in the defines, because we discuss this with them.  they leave it there for people who look there, but want it to stay there until it's official.  for example, right now avren's abilities are listed here at levels 10, 20, 30, 40, etc.  that is incorrect placeholder data, yet presented here as complete and current.  i'm not going to bother with avren, since he will be updated soon, but maybe next time we can discuss which info should be listed and which should not.  i helped alpha test the gamepad ui, and have been reporting bugs and glitches discovered for a long time.  i actually broke the game so bad on steam that i quit playing because i could pretty much do anything (by editing the defines).  it was a nice little break, and then the xbox release happened.  anyway if you are worried about sloppiness, let's just focus on what we can control, and keep the data here well organized and clear for players who may not be so familiar with CNE's inner workings.  QuickMythril (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2019 (UTC)